Talk:Phenibut

There's a line in the subjective effects list describing Phenibut as "significantly more recreational than alcohol or benzodiazepines". Any idea or reference for this, even anecdotally? I can't imagine, personally. -- sunfilter

@sunfilter: Both ethanol and benzodiazepines enhance GABA receptors; gabapentoids effectively function like endo-GABA due to their agonism to the GABA receptors. That is, they are substantially stronger and may be lethal when combined with benzodiazepines. --Kenan (talk) 13:45, 12 June 2017 (CEST)

@sunfilter: There seem to be at least two distinct populations that use phenibut. One is those who tend to identify as nootropic users, who use it at doses that primarily produce long-lasting, mild-to-moderate anxiolysis (doses under the 1 gram range or so) that evidence suggests is due to direct GABA-a agonism as Kenan suggested (or perhaps α2δ-1 calcium channel blockade which is the primary activity of pregabalin which is also not particularly recreational until you take it past the recommended dose range). Then there are those who are better defined as "recreational users", who use it as a "legal high" or grey-area pseudo-research chemical due to its euphoriant properties at doses beyond this range (doses starting at around 2-3 grams tends to produce a distinctly different response in all the reports I've reviewed). At this dose range, the effects seem to shift from functional anxiolysis to inebriating disinhibition as observed with benzodiazepines or ethanol at higher doses.

I remember briefly skimming through a paper the other day that says the GABA-a direct agonism has not been fully established, but if this is the case I suspect it is because they are using at doses equivalent to the ones used by the nootropic-user population (IIRC). So my random guess that I'm too lazy to go deeper into right now is that the recreational aspects of phenibut only become apparent at doses that elicit the GABA-a agonism. F-Phenibut, which functions as a more potent and rapidly acting analog of phenibut, has been reported to elicit strong states of euphoria that is said to be almost GHB-like. I also suspect this direct GABA-a agonist properties that both phenibut and f-phenibut presumably share induces dopamine release in the mesolimbic pathway (i.e. the "reward pathway") through some indirect mechanism or downstream interaction. But anecdotally, you can find plenty of reports of phenibut's distinct recreational/rewarding/reinforcing properties here: https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Smarts_Phenibut.shtml Whether that justifies the "significantly more" is fairly subjective though I'd say; it could probably be more accurately re-worded Clarity (talk) 09:20, 13 June 2017 (CEST)

Empty stomach?

In the section quoted below, it states that phenibut is highly caustic, and therefore SHOULD be taken on an empty stomach. I'd expect the opposite to be true and so it struck me as an obvious typo - I've not edited it however as in truth whilst understanding the words I've not the first clue what the "ionization state" referred to really means...

So, raising it as a query here instead.

"Phenibut hydrochloride is highly caustic and in many sensitive users can cause intestinal discomfort and diarrhea with some lower digestive tract bleeding. The digestive issues can present themselves within an hour of dosing, or not occur until the next morning. This compound should therefore be taken on an empty stomach as the ionization state of the compound dictates its absorption. After dosing there will be an acute rise in stomach acidity and high doses can cause acid reflux, vomiting, and nausea."

Corax (talk) 00:18, 8 December 2017 (CET)