Talk:Phenibut

There's a line in the subjective effects list describing Phenibut as "significantly more recreational than alcohol or benzodiazepines". Any idea or reference for this, even anecdotally? I can't imagine, personally. -- sunfilter

@sunfilter: Both ethanol and benzodiazepines enhance GABA receptors; gabapentoids effectively function like endo-GABA due to their agonism to the GABA receptors. That is, they are substantially stronger and may be lethal when combined with benzodiazepines. --Kenan (talk) 13:45, 12 June 2017 (CEST)

@sunfilter: There seem to be at least two distinct populations that use phenibut. One is those who tend to identify as nootropic users, who use it at doses that primarily produce long-lasting, mild-to-moderate anxiolysis (doses under the 1 gram range or so) that evidence suggests is due to direct GABA-a agonism as Kenan suggested (or perhaps α2δ-1 calcium channel blockade which is the primary activity of pregabalin which is also not particularly recreational until you take it past the recommended dose range). Then there are those who are better defined as "recreational users", who use it as a "legal high" or grey-area pseudo-research chemical due to its euphoriant properties at doses beyond this range (doses starting at around 2-3 grams tends to produce a distinctly different response in all the reports I've reviewed). At this dose range, the effects seem to shift from functional anxiolysis to inebriating disinhibition as observed with benzodiazepines or ethanol at higher doses.

I remember briefly skimming through a paper the other day that says the GABA-a direct agonism has not been fully established, but if this is the case I suspect it is because they are using at doses equivalent to the ones used by the nootropic-user population (IIRC). So my random guess that I'm too lazy to go deeper into right now is that the recreational aspects of phenibut only become apparent at doses that elicit the GABA-a agonism. F-Phenibut, which functions as a more potent and rapidly acting analog of phenibut, has been reported to elicit strong states of euphoria that is said to be almost GHB-like. I also suspect this direct GABA-a agonist properties that both phenibut and f-phenibut presumably share induces dopamine release in the mesolimbic pathway (i.e. the "reward pathway") through some indirect mechanism or downstream interaction. But anecdotally, you can find plenty of reports of phenibut's distinct recreational/rewarding/reinforcing properties here: https://erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Smarts_Phenibut.shtml Whether that justifies the "significantly more" is fairly subjective though I'd say; it could probably be more accurately re-worded Clarity (talk) 09:20, 13 June 2017 (CEST)

Empty stomach?

In the section quoted below, it states that phenibut is highly caustic, and therefore SHOULD be taken on an empty stomach. I'd expect the opposite to be true and so it struck me as an obvious typo - I've not edited it however as in truth whilst understanding the words I've not the first clue what the "ionization state" referred to really means...

So, raising it as a query here instead.

"Phenibut hydrochloride is highly caustic and in many sensitive users can cause intestinal discomfort and diarrhea with some lower digestive tract bleeding. The digestive issues can present themselves within an hour of dosing, or not occur until the next morning. This compound should therefore be taken on an empty stomach as the ionization state of the compound dictates its absorption. After dosing there will be an acute rise in stomach acidity and high doses can cause acid reflux, vomiting, and nausea."

Corax (talk) 00:18, 8 December 2017 (CET)

@Corax: I have no idea where this information came from. Due to the confusing wording and lack of citations, I decided to just remove it from the article. If someone reads this and can back the veracity of this claim with the proper citations and reasoning, feel free to add it back in. --Clarity (talk) 02:08, 18 January 2018 (CET)

Duration

This is largely, although not all, based upon personal experience so I can't supply references - so opening the subject for discussion instead of editing. I understand that (unlike Wikipedia) PsyconautWiki inherently has to rely on personal experiences though, and all of this is written from a neutral PoV. I'm a n00b editor, so be gentle with me if I'm totally off track... and someone please tell me if I should have just made the changes.

Definitions below (in italics) from https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/Duration.

Onset

"The onset can be defined as the period of time until the first noticeable changes in perception become apparent."

Four hours IME, so seems about right.

Come up[edit]

"The "come up" can be defined as the period between the first noticeable changes in perception and the highest intensity of subjective effects. This is colloquially known as "coming up.""

The "come up" is about 4 hours I think. This info is particularly important given the GABAergic nature of the substance (see my new section below) and the long onset - thus risk of overdose through re-dosing. From my reading this appears to be a real issue. If harm reduction is a primary purpose of the wiki, this ought to be here.

Peak[edit]

"The peak can be defined as the height of intensity for the substance's effects."

Good information here could also be valuable for harm reduction, in the same way as the above. I suggest 4 hours. It's certainly a long time in relation to comparable substances.

Offset[edit]

"The offset can be defined as the amount of time between feeling the full effects and coming down into sobriety. This is colloquially known as "coming down.""

Not sure - but I believe as much as nine hours. The reason I'm unsure is because of the definition; nine hours is right IMO for the first sentence, but doesn't fit the colloquial "coming down" as I've heard it used. My personal experience of a colloquial usage is an unreliable measure of how the world at large perceives a term though.

After effects[edit]

"The after effects can be defined as any residual effects which may last after the experience itself. This is colloquially known as a "hangover" or an "afterglow" depending on the substance."

Another one that it's important to get right for harm reduction, as people may plan to drive to work (for instance) the next day when they're still unfit to do so. In terms of risk to both themselves and others, this is essential information for [[1]]. Nothing I can suggest for this, but numerous people report a "hangover" effect.

--Corax (talk) 15:45, 11 December 2017 (CET)

@Clarity: :@Josikins: :@Oskykins: - any thoughts on the two sections above, or know of someone who might? Or am I not Wikinauting right?Corax (talk) 01:26, 2 January 2018 (CET)

@Corax: Thanks for bringing this to our attention and apologies for the late response. I agree that the unusual duration of this substance warrants a more detailed breakdown for the purposes of harm reduction. I've gone ahead and updated the 'Duration' article and a more detailed breakdown of the phenibut time course. Let me know if these changes seem reasonable to you. --Clarity (talk) 03:56, 18 January 2018 (CET)

@Clarity: Looks good to me. Maybe a bit longer for after effects? At large doses I think they're still noticeable at least 24 hours after initial ingestion.

GABAergic

Shouldn't this page have the standard red skull and crossbones warning that other GABAergic substances have? GABAergic status as per https://psychonautwiki.org/wiki/GABA#GABA_receptors

--Corax (talk) 15:45, 11 December 2017 (CET)

@Corax: Yes, it should. Thanks for pointing this out!The warning panel has been added. --Clarity (talk) 01:33, 17 December 2017 (CET)

Subjective effects?

1) Here's a particularly unpleasant effect I experienced after a *very* high dose - finding myself trapped in an inescapable "thought loop" where the end of one thought led inevitably to the beginning of the first one, and round and round and round it went. The only way out was once I fell asleep. I suspect if anyone had witnessed it they may have called an ambulance, and A&E would have diagnosed it as general "drug induced psychosis." Don't know if it deserves an entry - it was only after a moronic quantity.

2) "Dissociation"? As an after effect, I've felt in some way detached and apart from the world, whilst operating within it, for some time afterwards. It's only after it's lifted that I've been able to put a name to it, but I'm unsure of the correct terminology or where/if to add it.

@Corax: 1) Yeah, that definitely sounds like drug-induced psychosis to me :-/ I hope you're alright. May I ask how much you took specifically? Either way, I think it's safe to assume that this is a byproduct of an overdose, and not a primary pharmacological property of the substance. 2) I think what you're thinking of is depersonalization/derealization, which can be described as in terms of psychological dissociation. In this case, I do think this is an effect of the phenibut rebound. I will add this in now. Thanks! --Clarity (talk) 08:32, 31 January 2018 (CET)